Regarding the 405th Name; Not tryin' to start a controversy.

So, I was strolling through the classifieds a moment ago, and I noticed a big stink about the production of some pretty cool stuff for the 405th that was shot down because of some issues withe use of the 405th's name.

And it got me to thinking. At what point does the 405th officially recognize misuse of its name?

If I wanted to put the 405th's emblem on my armor, and display it proudly at conventions, would I have to ask permission, first? Of course, if not, what so far separates that from putting the 405th's emblem on some member-exclusive item and selling that, especially with the promise of using proceeds to help out the community?

I completely understand that the administration wants to protect the 405th's good name from being dragged through the mud under these troopers' boots. I completely sympathize with that sentiment.

But, I have to ask, what would hurt the 405th's good name more? A member selling something with its emblem to members who know the 405th's integrity, by heart? Or a member spraypainting its emblem on his armor and parading around like a fool at conventions?

I don't mean, in any way, to cause a controversy, or contradict anything the site administration has said. I also make the assumption in that last part, that one does not have to request permission to use the 405th insignia for their own personal use. If I'm wrong on that, call me on it.

I'd like a reasonable discussion about this subject, and if we can't all be civil or this clearly goes against how things should work, I ask that the thread be locked as soon as that's decided.

All that said, what do you think? Post your opinion on this topic.

I don't know to what extent the 405th is considered an actual organization (you'd probably have to ask adam or a mod about that), but my guess is that it does hold certain legal rights pertaining to its name and IP. Now, I think I know which item in the classifieds you are referring to, and by skimming through some of the posts, it appears as though the OP was selling something that incorporated the 405th's name with UNSC, an obvious trademark of Microsoft. I'd assume that the 405th would not want to be pushed into some legal battle against Microsoft for having merchandise sold that incorporates both organizations' legal property.

Let me first state - my response is not an official response - that belongs to Adam and only him. As someone who has worked for the 405th for 2+ years. I can answer a few of these - atleast according to my understanding. I'm going to edit your post and number it so that I can answer each question/statement to the best of my ability.

SchizophrenicMC said:

1. At what point does the 405th officially recognize misuse of its name?

2. If I wanted to put the 405th's emblem on my armor, and display it proudly at conventions, would I have to ask permission, first?

3. Of course, if not, what so far separates that from putting the 405th's emblem on some member-exclusive item and selling that, especially with the promise of using proceeds to help out the community?

4. But, I have to ask, what would hurt the 405th's good name more? A member selling something with its emblem to members who know the 405th's integrity, by heart? Or a member spraypainting its emblem on his armor and parading around like a fool at conventions?

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1. All requests to use the 405th name, logo, or slogans need to be brought to the attention of the Brand Manager, Spase, for approval.

2. Yes you would need permission, see the above answer. To date no one has been allowed to wear the 405th logo on their armor as there are no official 405th members, not even Adam. You are all 405th forum members, that's it. The charter is being written by the staff which will cover pretty much every situation and rule you can think of.. including this very debate.

3. The official merchandise so far has been the official t-shirts of the 405th as well as the official hats of the 405th. Mind you owning either of these is the equivalent of owning a football jersey... just because you own one doesn't mean you're on the team. All proceeds from the official merchandise has been put towards the community. The website, forum upgrade, hosting, and .com have all been paid for via donations, adverts, and direct sales of this merchandise.

4. This is a loaded question as both answers have the potential to be equally destructive to the brand. For the sake of argument.. lets say we're talking about a pair of Nike shoes. We have the official Nike sneaker - a product people have come to know and recognize. Then we have a fan of Nike who really loves Nike sneakers. So one day he decides to make his own pair of sneakers, use the nike swoosh logo and sell it. You see the problem here? He/she might have good intentions of spreading the name around but when those sneakers fall apart, have a weird reaction to people's skin, etc the name is tarnished even though it wasn't a real Nike sneaker. Hope that makes sense. As far as the other half of the question, someone doing it regardless of the outcome, well there's bad apples all over. I'm not sure what the official policy is on this but we've never had a problem with it. I mean I know at the very least there's only 2 places you're going to wear a master chief suit, a convention or a costume party. Can't really do anything about the costume party but conventions do have secuirty officers if someone were to start causing problems. Additionally you can guarantee there's going to be more 405th members there, so if you want to cross a bunch of your peers who obey the rules... good luck. I know the 405th has all it's images, name, logo, slogan, etc copyrighted and I'm not a lawyer so I can't tell you how far those copyrights reach.

I answered everything to the best of my ability. As I stated above though, I am not the official verdict on anything. Adam may have something different to say on the matter.

Cheers,
Kensai

I would even be a little more lenient than Kensai. I don't think there is anything wrong with sporting some 405th stuff on your armor or whatever.

Hell I used to have this on my back before it was the 405th.



Now the difference in doing that for yourself (or making a 405th hoodie for yourself like 1 member did) and manufacturing 405th merch to sell is that :

1. If you didn't talk about stuff ahead of time with Walter and Adam then there is no quality control or guarantees of anything being done on time or accountability etc.

2. What's to stop people from saying they're "the official 405th pep-builder" etc.


Again the thing is that it's not against the rules to make 405th stuff. Just get it approved first.

EDIT: To be clear though the REAL 405th is exactly as Kensai describes. All of us are just regular 405th forum members until the actual members organization gets formed. Promoting the 405th forum is good but only Adam actually represents the 405th organization.

I'm guilty of supporting mjolnirarmor.com AND impersonating a moderator when in armor - so HA! Oh wait.. this isn't a contest is it?





Don't worry Sigma - your suit is still alive and kicking

Cheers,
Kensai

Dude that looks awesome! I forgot you had a Spase helmet too! Your suit probably has the most awesome forum-related history of anybody's.

Lol, anyways. I think what the reasoning may be is that the 405th name may be represented the way it shouldn't be.

Off-Topic: Nice to see you around Kensai, because I haven't in a while.

The main issue here is using the 405th name to make a profit, and more specifically, taking money for things, and then not following through with it. It has happened a few times on this board over runs of 405th stuff. Paint the stuff on your armor all you want, don't use the 405th to do runs of items to sell.

kensai111 said:

Let me first state - my response is not an official response - that belongs to Adam and only him. As someone who has worked for the 405th for 2+ years. I can answer a few of these - atleast according to my understanding. I'm going to edit your post and number it so that I can answer each question/statement to the best of my ability.



1. All requests to use the 405th name, logo, or slogans need to be brought to the attention of the Brand Manager, Spase, for approval.

2. Yes you would need permission, see the above answer. To date no one has been allowed to wear the 405th logo on their armor as there are no official 405th members, not even Adam. You are all 405th forum members, that's it. The charter is being written by the staff which will cover pretty much every situation and rule you can think of.. including this very debate.

Cheers,
Kensai

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I have contacted the brand manager and got approval to wear the offical "Aged Logo" on my armor. He made it very clear that it must be for personal use and that it must be a removable logo. That way if for ANY reason, should my suit be sold, the sticker must come off. "So it is not to be confused that the forum is selling suits".

I strongly urge that if you want to use the logo, contact him and seek approval.

Soooo... does that mean that I'm the 1st to have approval?

Cheers!

LongShot-X said:

Soooo... does that mean that I'm the 1st to have approval?

Cheers!

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Not Quite - although I'm not using the official "dress" logo:

New Hotness


Old Busted



I went with a simplified version of one of the earlier logo's from Doc_Bytes (Waaaay back when the whole "logo" thing was still under development). The simplified version just seemed more "Halo" and appropriate for armor than the official "dress" logo. I got essentially the same instructions - personal use only, etc. If anyone is curious, waterslide decals work great for this kind of 3-D application...

I see. All of that makes sense, really. I totally get where you were coming from. I just figured I'd bring it up, being as that's the purpose of forum.

I do have another question, though it's off-topic:
Just how long has the 405th been trying to exist? (Because it sounds like none of this even exists yet 0_0)

its all to do with how responsible you can be and not act like a total jack hole. oh and DogWizard, i do appreciate the M.I.B reference, watching it as i type.

SchizophrenicMC said:

I do have another question, though it's off-topic:
Just how long has the 405th been trying to exist? (Because it sounds like none of this even exists yet 0_0)

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I think that it was always a possibility but there was a big push a couple years ago (Logo, Charter, Merchandise, Organization, Costuming/Age Requirements, Bungie/MS Recognition, Etc., Etc.) but it all appeared to fall apart about a year or so ago. I'm not sure what happened exactly - the Charter seemed to be the primary stumbling block as it would actually lay out the framework for the official "405th Infantry Division" as separate from the 405th Forum. It seemed like it was "just about done" for about six months and then all discussion or mention of it disappeared.


Some key players/talented people left (for various reasons) and then there were the multiple shutdowns and the big site move. Many people moved on (to other forums or permanantly) or took a break due to the state of the forums/membership (myself included). It looks like things have started to heat back up and there are some really high quality projects (and some great new faces) showing up so hopefully something will actually happen this time. My guess is that since the forum itself is still not really up and running correctly, the "official" 405th is either quite a ways off or will never happen. I would love to be mistaken as we had the potential to really take this somewhere great...

Here's Hoping!

I was talking to somebody about the right to sell game inspired props and I guess this could figure into the equation as well. I would assume that throwing down a 405th could cause major problems in selling props and even bring a creative rights lawsuit against the "405th" such as it is. Perhaps adding the 405th emblem to your sold props implies that a company is manufacturing props, whose respective creative rights belong to Bungie. It would then appear as if the company "405th Infantry division" is selling objects whose rights belong to bungie, as if Nerf were to sell 100% bootlegged Halo props as nerf guns. I'm not entirely sure, but perhaps this is a good reason to not stamp the 405th logo on everything you make...

Sithslayer78 said:

I was talking to somebody about the right to sell game inspired props and I guess this could figure into the equation as well. I would assume that throwing down a 405th could cause major problems in selling props and even bring a creative rights lawsuit against the "405th" such as it is. Perhaps adding the 405th emblem to your sold props implies that a company is manufacturing props, whose respective creative rights belong to Bungie. It would then appear as if the company "405th Infantry division" is selling objects whose rights belong to bungie, as if Nerf were to sell 100% bootlegged Halo props as nerf guns. I'm not entirely sure, but perhaps this is a good reason to not stamp the 405th logo on everything you make...

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I think that the key is "legitimate and appropriate personal use only with permission" - no mass-produced props or items for sale. That one phrase addresses the vast majority of potential problems...

This is gonna sound like I iz rtard but............


Can I use it as a insignia on my armor and NEVER SELL IT(as I'll never part with my armor!!) and have it on there? or it's......

......ME: I think the damaged emblem will look cool on my emile shoulder and it's just gonna be kept by me and never sold so hpefully I want get banned or something if Adam had a problem I could always sand it off...*posts pic*.....LOOKY HERE GUYSSS!!!!

MOD(randon generated 405th mod): THE GODS HAVE SPOKEN BBBBAAAANNNHHHAAAMMMEEERRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I mean it hopefully it wouldn't be like that right???????

I mean after all how would that hurt the community as a whole??? and I wouldn't make it for a profit.....

AGAIN MY PERSONAL ARMOR

You know, in all fairness, the 405th [Marine] Infantry Division is technically an IP of Bungie Studios and Microsoft, being that it's the name of a marines unit in Halo 2.

Not entirely sure how we can get away with that, but go into worrying about any other copyright issue. I get that stuff like the above is a big issue, but just our name, man. At least Bungie's cool with it, eh? 0_0

And I use "we" and "our" flippantly, to refer to the costuming community. We, the 405th Infantry Division Forum Members. (Could I say citizens? As opposed to members, anyway? I mean, citizens went to forum in Rome)

Well the 501st has the same problem. The difference is they were canonized after their formation, but still Lucas technically owns the name.

The thing is we exist by the good graces of Bungie and MS. As long as we represent them well and "use our powers for good" then we'll probably continue to exist.

If you are asking what legal recourse we have for people stealing our stuff, anything 405th (like the logo) that has no halo imagery on it whatsoever is ours (Adam's). You can't really copyright a number. There could be any number of works out there that have a ship or a planet or something named 117. The real problem is the Halo imagery which you notice the 405th does not have in the logo.

Battletech has an Irian Hussar's 405th Infantry Brigade (older than Halo by 15 years)

Real life has the 405th Air Expiditionary Wing, 405th Army Field Support Brigade, 405th Fighter Wing, and I'm sure there are others I'm missing.

But the reality of other people using our 405th logo on merch without permission is much more like the recourse we have for recasting. IP Ban said person, Blacklist said person, notify other prop sites of what they did. With that being their only market for such stuff they've pretty much shot themselves in the foot and ruined their chances at being able to work with people on future projects. Of course that is a worst case scenario. More than often it's just a misunderstanding of the rules that doesn't require we go that far.

Tyvern said:

This is gonna sound like I iz rtard but............


Can I use it as a insignia on my armor and NEVER SELL IT(as I'll never part with my armor!!) and have it on there? or it's......

......ME: I think the damaged emblem will look cool on my emile shoulder and it's just gonna be kept by me and never sold so hpefully I want get banned or something if Adam had a problem I could always sand it off...*posts pic*.....LOOKY HERE GUYSSS!!!!

MOD(randon generated 405th mod): THE GODS HAVE SPOKEN BBBBAAAANNNHHHAAAMMMEEERRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I mean it hopefully it wouldn't be like that right???????

I mean after all how would that hurt the community as a whole??? and I wouldn't make it for a profit.....

AGAIN MY PERSONAL ARMOR

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Double post but did you read Adam's post at all? He specifically said that kind of thing was cool.

Sigma-LS said:

Double post but did you read Adam's post at all? He specifically said that kind of thing was cool.

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I did sigma but I was still confused