The 405th Infantry Charter situation

[Deadguy]

Ok, I was unable to find anything but chunks of the original Charter.

As a result, I went ahead and remade it. I'm going to upload it soon.

Here's what I'd like to see happen.. I'll upload the charter in an Admin directory (or a new directory.. whatever Adam wants to do). At the moment, there is no "405th Council" other than perhaps the moderators, so for the purposes of getting this thing off the ground, the existing moderators will officially BECOME the provisional (temporary) 405th Council until we get moving. There will likely be a few other folks that get access who shouldn't become moderators, so I suggest that rather than an "admin only" folder, it should be a "trusted level" folder of the "highest" type. (later, perhaps 405th members will have a trusted level too, therefore allowing a "members only" area).

This means that mods (Adam too, of course) will have the first crack at the charter, and then when it's in a form that's closer to what the new "council" wants, they can change the permissions on that forum to Public. Everyone will be able to read the moderator discussions, but cannot actually form new posts there.

NON-COUNCIL Discussions regarding changes or additions to the charter can occur elsewhere in a "CHARTER DISCUSSION FORUM" (CDF), and if any council member agrees to something posted in these discussion areas, they can bring it to the council forums for further discussion and a vote.

Also, in that CDF area we'll start breaking-down things like.. who wants to take what position.. how do we want to break up the "terrritores", who wants to lead in those areas, etc. From there, we'll start forums based on territories, and run votes in the required offices. Around the same time, we'll start looking at finalizing our first true 405th Infantry Council.

Currently, the membership count of the 405th Infantry Division is ZERO. We will begin to become members as we move to a stage where we can HAVE members and have true membership requirements/benefits, etc. Membership on these forums is NOT membership in the 405th club.

Once these steps are in-motion, we'll be a LOT further on our way then you might think we are.

For those of you under the age of 18, I'm still working on that goal to get a second club that works alongside the main 405th club. Don't worry, no one is forgettting you, or overlooking you.. You're all very important to this club and the secondary club is secondary in name only. It's required for legal reasons only and once we get things finalized, both groups will be working together, each relying on the other.. Age requirements for the younger group will be somewhere around the "proven to be mature 13 year olds" to 17 year olds.

So, now I just need to sit back and see if Adam wants me to make me a moderator again (or maybe merely part of a trusted group) so that I'm involved with the next steps, or see if he just wants me to PM it to him again and handle the rest without me.

For the Record: I'm not here to take over, nor steal any thunder from folks that are already working towards Club organization... I just knew someone had to step up, and since I'd already spent several months working on EXACTLY this project, I figured my ideas would be a good starting point for you all. In fact, I originally came to these forums just to start a group like this.. I was amazed to see that Adam already had the website thing going, and approached him with the idea. Turns out it's what he already wanted to do. So, I wasn't going to try and do something in competition when it seemed obvious that a team-up would be more successful, so I tried to team up with him on it. (back then, I was calling it "Spartan HQ" and had the URL linked to the mjolnirarmor page, I'm not sure when it changed to the 405th).

The forums didn't have the amount of members we needed for something like this, so I worked-out the Charter and basically hinted at it to spark interest, and kept sending people here for armor info. I made Bungie and Bungie fansite contacts and I waited for the membership to climb higher, but then eventually I had to move on when "signature advertising" for an armor maker I was associated with became a bad thing. I couldn't justify the time spent on here helping folks and promoting the heck out of the site for free if I couldn't advertise my "spare change" hobby in my signature, and so I bailed to get involved with other projects. Honestly? I think that Real life pretty much kept me away.

Then Rob called me yesterday to tell me about the 405th and DragonCon, so I stopped by to see how the Spartan HQ was shaping up... and well.. It wasn't.
So, here I am.

Anway, it'll start moving NOW folks.. if you have any doubts, they'll start to go away when you see what the charter does for us.

I don't want to post the charter in-public until mods/Adam has had a look at it first, it could start unneeded issues, and there are likely to be some decisions that have already been made which conflict with it, that I'm currently unaware of. Hey, it's the best I could do without delaying it further.

 

[Adam]

perhaps we should organize this in the staff forum before we present a "solution"

 

[Deadguy]

perhaps we should organize this in the staff forum before we present a "solution"

Exactly, which is why I'm waiting to see if you wanted the Charter PM'd to you again, or if you wanted to "re-promote" me back to where I have access to that forum again, (or set up a new member level or wherever), so I could see/post it there.

The Charter's totally ready for whatever you want me to do with it.

As I said in the beginning of the post, the rest of that was all just a suggestion of how I thought it might best move forward from there. a "what I'd like to see happen" kinda' thing. I have no problem just handing it over and walking away to let ya'll deal with it.. it's your baby, not mine, I just figure I've got a good head for this kinda' stuff in case anyone was "stuck" with what to do with it from there.

**update**(almost 5:00PM EST 2-15-08)
Ok, well. I'm emailling it to my home address now, in case you come up with something this weekend. Just lemme' know.

**update #2** (8:13PM EST 2-15-08)
I PM'd the charter to all of the mods including Adam, but Adam's inbox was full, and Redslieghdown had a "maximum stored messages" message, so they didn't get it.. hopefully one of them will put it in the staff forum and they can start beating it up.

**update #3** (2:40PM EST 2-16-08, Saturday)
Sean and Link have received their copies, but no PM'[s from anyone. Hopefully, they're posting it in the Staff Forum to discuss it, like Adam suggested above. (sorry about the update thing but I figured I shouldn't double post). Now I guess we just wait to hear more.

 

[Deadguy]

It's been over 24 hours now, so this isn't REALLY a double post...

Ok, so Doom read his copy today, and PM'd me to let me know he's posted it in the staff forum. It's an odd charter, and it's still kinda sized for a larger group, so it still needs adjustments, (based on data that hasn't even been taken yet, regarding population densities, etc), but at least it's firmly in their capable hands. I'm guessing this'll be my last update on the subject since I'm not one of the ones able to access it.

So now we wait.. and focus on undecided factors, like the "entry level costume" issue and/or the backstory thing, while I assume, I'm still supposed to work on the "under 18 membership" issues... I have some more leads on that and am doing more research on it.. I'm unofficially on the case though, and have passed more info along to Doom about it, that I'm otherwise keeping under wraps, to keep detailled discussions and arguments down until we really have a plan and something to change, rather than merely demonstrate idle resistance to the initial concepts.

 

[Vrogy]

I'd sure like to know what's going on- I think everyone probably would.

It'd be really great if it was made public as sections are agreed upon, to show us progress is being made.
Otherwise, we have a wiki; we can do it ourselves.


...and I sure as hell hope they intend to put it to a vote of the forum members before it's officialized.

 

[Doom]

We are sorting things out right now. Maybe in a week or two there will be a public announcement.


-Doom

 

[TheRob]

We are sorting things out right now. Maybe in a week or two there will be a public announcement.
-Doom

With a good amount of voting and approval and overview by the public of the board I assume?

 

[Primal Weyland]

With a good amount of voting and approval and overview by the public of the board I assume?

I'd certainly hope so. As far as I see, the 405th is rather more of a democracy than a dictatorship - I expect the charter will be as fair and considerate to all existing 'site members' as is possible.

Unfortunately, not every solution is perfect... however, I anticipate that the new charter will be as good as it possibly can be.

 

[Deadguy]

To those of you that are concerned about decisions being made without public input.. The charter is designed to evolve. If there's stuff that folks don't like, even in a "finalized" version, there's plenty of ways to get your voice heard, and changes made. I don't agree that everyone should vote on everything during it's initial formation because it will significantly slow the process down. Some of the changes needed at this point can't really be determined until we're sure of how many folks are onboard and active, or if they're isolated, on in clusters. Again, I suggest looking towards the 501st charter for an indication of what kinda' things are being discussed.

I've recommended (though I'm not sure if it's something they want to do) that we do a provisional charter and make sections of the final charter public as they are finalized, rather than just dumping the whole thing in here.

Right now it's being worked on by those that are in-charge because they were the ones that got up and stepped up to the plate, showing at least SOME level of leadership desire/ability.

It's a start, ya' know? The more they can get done before making it public, the further along we'll be. Then if there's significant issues with something, we can explain why it's set-up the way it is, and give everyone an oppourtunity to suggest another method of achieving those goals. Realistically, the Charter skeleton is set-up to achieive goals, and the methods they're looking at are kinda' going to write themselves through legal necessity, and a strong approach to fairness, rather than the 501st's scenario of "this is the suit you need to have or you don't exist" kind of mentality.

I think most views happen to be well represented, as evident by the fact that "stances" are being argued upon. The more discussion that you guys put out here in public, the more your views will be represented in there, though that's just my opinion.

I don't have access to the discussions on the charter, although some of the mods have been asking me questions through PM, and to my judgement, the questions are intelligent ones which will lead towards good (and sometimes creative) policy decisions. We're in good hands here I think, and I also think that it's only fair that folks like Adam and his selected staff, get first shot at it because this is their baby.

**update#1 (2-18-08 9:30PM EST)**
Now I have access. it's overwhelming in size, so we're going for chunks at a time.. The first section is undergoing approval and minor revisions, virually unchanged though. It's the easiest section though, I suspect.. It'll get harder VERY soon.

**Update #2 (2-20-08 2:46PM EST)**
Well, we HAD some progress on it. The very first section is almost done, but it's still gotta' float there for a bit to give everyone a chance to vote on it in there. The next section is floating in there too (I put it in there yesterday). I kinda' thought it was another easy one, but there haven't been any votes or comments made on it yet, despite about 7-8 views. If it stays "dead" like that, I'm probably going to take that section and hang it out here for you guys to argue about.

Discussion on the age thing is continuing, with Spase putting in quite a bit of useful material on the subject, though it looks like the addition of under 18 members might have to come after the rest of the charter is up. There's some legalese involved with the kids.. so if anyone's got a free lawyer handy, or happens to be one, please PM me about it. Currently, I still beleive it's possible, and it seems like I'm getting some agreement on that fact, but the actual METHOD is a legal disclaimer jungle we have to hack through.

Discussions on an undisclosed side topic were useful.. it made me proud to be involved with any of this... When it goes public, I suspect many of you will feel proud of it too. Assuming it's released with a full description, and not just "dropped on you" lol we'll see.

This would all be easier in-person, but our geographical separations need to be worked around. Especially since there's a date set for our first event, and I'm hoping we've got a charter ready by then, even if it isn't our "finalized" version. It's funny to think that I've been busting my butt on this thing and Rob is the only member I've met before.

 

[Vrogy]

Deadguy, *much* thanks for the updates. It's good to know someone's actively working on it.
Here's a suggestion for conferencing on the charter: set a meeting time, and start a big group chat on Skype, AIM, or IRC. Set a meeting length and publish a list of issues to try to decide beforehand, votes can be taken on the spot.

 

[Deadguy]

Deadguy, *much* thanks for the updates. It's good to know someone's actively working on it.
Here's a suggestion for conferencing on the charter: set a meeting time, and start a big group chat on Skype, AIM, or IRC. Set a meeting length and publish a list of issues to try to decide beforehand, votes can be taken on the spot.

Yeah, I'd like that too, but it seems like we're all on at different times. I also want to put the stuff in a place where it stays there and we can continue referencing it and discussing it. They've seen your idea now though, so if they want to, we'll go for it.

Discussions on an undisclosed side topic were useful.. it made me proud to be involved with any of this... When it goes public, I suspect many of you will feel proud of it too. Assuming it's released with a full description, and not just "dropped on you" lol we'll see.

Just to let you know, it was that 3-hexagon logo with the laurel leaves. It's not official or anything yet, it was just kinda' added for more feedback on it, to make sure everyone who intends to join has a say on it. The description I was referring to was:

I am still more of a outwardly simple, inwardly complex man myself I suppose. The more symbols we try to add makes it just feel like we are trying to hard. This isn't the Da vinci Code. Simple original patterns with out layering symbols over symbols makes things cohesive and easier to recognize. Many societies use symbols as monikers, but those symbols a are prevalent, often right in front of your faces, and imply symbolic meaning to the members. Its a way of remembrance for what we stand.

Rather than keep adding to the logo keep it simple and add meaning.
1. The three hexagons represent Honor, Armor, and Community
2. Three Hexagons from a triangle, the most basic geometric structure, no two lines and form an enclosed space, but three connecting lines mean completion, the formation of a group.
3. The ring connecting the three hexagons represents unification of a group, an unbreakable bond.
4. The two colors
-Black is associated with power, elegance, formality, and mystery.
-Blue is associated with with depth and stability, trust, loyalty, wisdom, confidence, intelligence.

My own input was that:

The laurel wreath signifies victory (and organized strength), which reminds you of what you cannot have without all of the other elements.. this instills pride, conviction, confidence, and the humility to remember that it's the team unity which creates this strength, and relies on you for your part.

The more I look at it, the more I like it. In fact, when this thing get's off the ground, it's likely to become a tattoo (for me).

I'm pumped!

There's one little thing that bothers me though.. it's the way the ring is a line, rather than a pair of lines.. I THINK it's what's causing the space between the hexagons to "snap-out" making a prominent yellow "Y" in the middle of the design... (I think I'm alone in being bothered by that though, so I won't argue it anymore, but it's distracting to me.)

However, we need to try the logos against different backgrounds to test for how it'll look on Grey/Drab Green/etc.. Unless the patches, banners, and shirts are all going to be white?

That's all about that logo though, and if nothing else, I hope it reminds you guys that there's no intention to exclude you from stuff. I mean, it was possible to dump it on you when it was felt to be "completed" in the staff forum and say.. "look! here's THE logo!" But as Adam was quick to remind all of us.. we're no more important than any of you in this club and that your opinions/ feedback in here is just as important as ours is in there. No one is losing sight of that.

Current status on the charter is that we're still working on that one article. It was worded oddly for someone not experienced with it, so I set-up a new thread to break it down further.. That's getting feedback on it, and today, I went a step further and posted an example in terms of "If a guy in Texas Joined, he'd automatically fall into THIS group, and depending upon his location in Texas, he'd become a part of THAT group too."

It's not easy to suddenly dive into some of the concepts, and I guess I wasn't even 100% aware of how they worked either, until I talked with Rob on the phone about it and then started running it through imaginary tests like "What if THIS happens, how is THAT going to be handled and how does it affect everything else?".. etc. It worked for me, so now I'm just sharing what I had to go through to understand it.

I'm being slightly vague in these updates because I don't want to suggest that THIS is how things will be. I also don't want someone quoting it later saying.. "But he said we were called THESE, now I'm totally confused." But the reality is, if anyone's following at home, using the 501st charter, it's the basic organizational breakdown indicated in Article 3.

There's no intent on anyone's part to hide anything from you guys, and I really really hope no one thinks I'm talking down to them by not revealling details. We're using a small group to work on it, fully understand it, and then when it's decided that we're all good with it and that noone is getting screwed by it, and most importantly, that it works for the 405th, we'll get it out here. Then we're likely to spend time explaining the scenarios that led us to our decisions on anything anyone wants to contest. We're all human, and mistakes (or alternate decisions) may be made, but if we can be convinced of the need for a change, then it'll change.

There's still no real discussion about who handles what position yet because the club and it's offices simply doesn't exist yet, with the exception that all important final decisions rest with Adam, and that he'll be the leader.

Speaking personally, if I stay in a non-ranking member position, that's awesome because I'm only here to be a proud member of the 405th, and able to say "hey, I'm one of the first members here!" which most of you will also be able to claim right alongside me.

 

[SPARTAN II]

I am still more of a outwardly simple, inwardly complex man myself I suppose. The more symbols we try to add makes it just feel like we are trying to hard. This isn't the Da vinci Code. Simple original patterns with out layering symbols over symbols makes things cohesive and easier to recognize. Many societies use symbols as monikers, but those symbols a are prevalent, often right in front of your faces, and imply symbolic meaning to the members. Its a way of remembrance for what we stand.

Rather than keep adding to the logo keep it simple and add meaning.
1. The three hexagons represent Honor, Armor, and Community
2. Three Hexagons from a triangle, the most basic geometric structure, no two lines and form an enclosed space, but three connecting lines mean completion, the formation of a group.
3. The ring connecting the three hexagons represents unification of a group, an unbreakable bond.
4. The two colors
-Black is associated with power, elegance, formality, and mystery.
-Blue is associated with with depth and stability, trust, loyalty, wisdom, confidence, intelligence.

The laurel wreath signifies victory (and organized strength), which reminds you of what you cannot have without all of the other elements.. this instills pride, conviction, confidence, and the humility to remember that it's the team unity which creates this strength, and relies on you for your part.

The more I look at it, the more I like it. In fact, when this thing get's off the ground, it's likely to become a tattoo (for me).

That, I have to say, is probably the best definition of what our club logo represents. Perfect!

I'm being slightly vague in these updates because I don't want to suggest that THIS is how things will be. I also don't want someone quoting it later saying.. "But he said we were called THESE, now I'm totally confused." But the reality is, if anyone's following at home, using the 501st charter, it's the basic organizational breakdown indicated in Article 3.

There's no intent on anyone's part to hide anything from you guys, and I really really hope no one thinks I'm talking down to them by not revealling details. We're using a small group to work on it, fully understand it, and then when it's decided that we're all good with it and that noone is getting screwed by it, and most importantly, that it works for the 405th, we'll get it out here. Then we're likely to spend time explaining the scenarios that led us to our decisions on anything anyone wants to contest. We're all human, and mistakes (or alternate decisions) may be made, but if we can be convinced of the need for a change, then it'll change.

There's still no real discussion about who handles what position yet because the club and it's offices simply doesn't exist yet, with the exception that all important final decisions rest with Adam, and that he'll be the leader.

Speaking personally, if I stay in a non-ranking member position, that's awesome because I'm only here to be a proud member of the 405th, and able to say "hey, I'm one of the first members here!" which most of you will also be able to claim right alongside me.

Makes sense to me. I'm more than willing to leave the details of this up to someone who's actually had some experience with such organizational procedures, cause I sure as hell never have!

Honestly, I don't think anyone will have an issue with you guys doing the preliminary work amongst yourselves only. Understandably, it has to be sorted by the Admin/Mod group first, and then presented to the general membership for any minor revisions, if needed...

 

[Deadguy]

Well.. we had a definition issue that screwed us up a bit, but it remotivated the folks in there, and gave us a clearer way to proceed.. Other charter-related topics are being adressed.. and those aspects seem to be shaping up nicely.

The charter itself, well. the first "chunk" section was reworded a bit and is up for voting in there. I don't anticipate any problems with it now, but we'll see.

There's suggestions that we might be moving too quickly in there because we've got several conversations going at the same time. Not sure what that really means, in terms of our newly-found forward momentum, but I guess there's folks that want to be directly involved with every aspect of everything that goes on, but can't be there daily. That's not a BAD thing per se, but it means we have to be kind of aware of how many posts a person has to get thorugh in-order to catch-up when they've been away for several days.

I guess I'm the worst at doing that.. explaining the crap outta' things (literally.. if you listen to SOME of the guys in there! )

Anyways, there's still discussions regarding basic costume requirements that are going on. Nothing solid to report at this point though.

It's interesting to note that the group in there is doing a pretty good job of representing everyone.. Including Pro-level armor makers, budget level ones and even non-armor making costume fans... There's also people in there representing the younger folks. Some of us seem highly opinionated, which SOUNDS bad, but if you stop and think about it, all it does is bring more to the table for discussion, which is a good thing..

There's also a leadeship discussion going on. As far as I can tell, it's to lead the group towards maintaining focus on single issues, rather than dividing it's attention among other topics.. This could be good, or could be bad. It means that active members must slow down and wait for a single item to be dealt with, rather than pursuing ideas that they have in other areas. I don't like it, personally, but that's because I'm usually on here about 4-6 times a day and would get bored to tears if there was nothing to do in there for a solid week or two while waiting for other folks to respond.

We'll see how it goes though. The theory is a variation of the Ranger's creedo.. "Do it slowly to get it done faster".. Basically, they say that in-order to shoot something quickly you have to take your time to aim at it properly.

While I agree with that motto, I don't feel it applies here because there's no rush.. it only feels like a rush to the people that aren't actually involved. I'm spending quite a great deal of time going over things in my head before I spill them out into the forum. To go any slower would be to stop and delay (at least on my part). That's just me though.. for someone that comes in once every two-three days, it must seem like a rush because there's tons of posts, with more popping-up as you try to read to catch-up, plus take the time to respond, while others are already moving on to other subjects.

I dunno though.. it's not accurate to say that we could make some huge mistake and we'll end-up all messed up because of it. We're not really dealing with sensitive things of that nature.

BUT.. I guess to appease things I might not post in there so often.. seems counter productive and counter intuitive, but it actually makes sense to try and "normalize" the effects of time in there... maybe this'll help? I dunno'.. It just seems like there's stuff that comes up in there, and it's nice to go ahead and discuss it while the person is still in there.. it's like having a conversation.

I don't know.. we'll see. It's funny how even as I go to hit the "add reply" button, I'm thinking about what might be new in the forum since I last refreshed it. Guess I'm not supposed to reply for a little bit.. let others do it or something. ugg..

 

[docbytes]

Thanks for keeping us up-to-date, we as a group seem to think we're left out when no one responds or tries to keep us up to snuff. While I understand the higher powers have to work out the Charter and some ground rules it is nice to be included as much as you do Deadguy. I personally think that the speed is of no importance, of course I've had to help with a charter before.

Thanks agian, and I am personal glad for all the info you give and the help earlier.

 

[gamerguy55]

Thanks for keeping us up-to-date, we as a group seem to think we're left out when no one responds or tries to keep us up to snuff. While I understand the higher powers have to work out the Charter and some ground rules it is nice to be included as much as you do Deadguy. I personally think that the speed is of no importance, of course I've had to help with a charter before.

Thanks agian, and I am personal glad for all the info you give and the help earlier.

I really can't think of anything to add to that.

 

[LastSpartan]

Wow Deadguy, I totally agree with you

 

[Deadguy]

Well, the charter situation is.. changing.

I guess I may have misrepresented the "moving too fast" part in my previous post because I related it how I understood it at the time. There are good folks working on stuff, but the relentless pace is dragging folks in there on almost a constant basis. Those that aren't able to do that, are kinda' left in the dust a bit, as folks agree on something and then move on and/or branch off onto several different topics even within a single day.

I wasn't helping much because I was primed for action, and responding to everything all over the place with massive entries, and suggesting deadlines and stuff that may not have been real realistic for the way we were set up for it.

It's all good though, there's a new idea floating that should take care of those issues, and a greater bit of organization on how we go about addressing stuff in future.

This is a good thing, a bit of a clean slate to work with, and bodes well for the future of the Club.

Just like that US ranger thing I mentioned last time.. "Work slower for faster results"

It's a reference to taking the time to aim properly before trying to shoot an enemy (if you miss you'd have to set-up another shot). It's true, taking the time to make your first shot count will certainly improve it's accuracy and therefore save you time in the long run.

Unfortunately, I'm probably going to have to stop these updates for now. In theory, Adam might pick them up, or suggest someone else do it. The problem comes from information hitting the public forums that might be considered controversial, because, for example, if I was involved with a debate, I might represent my side strongly, rather than the other person's side.. it becomes too biased a report and might be bad for the club in general, especially if my side of the debate loses, and something I mentioned in a negative way becomes the next "official rule", or what I was so positive towards, turns out to be something we're unable to deliver.

It's true, there's just no way around biased reporting without doing official statements from an official source... that's why God created press releases (and Frankie too), I guess, lol

I figured an informal update would be useful to the group, but maybe it's not.

That's not to say that we don't want you guys to know what's going on, I'm just pretty sure this isn't the way to do it.

Long and short is that I took it upon myself to update you guys without clearing it with anyone, under the assumption that it wouldn't be an issue, and really, it hasn't been, but it's suggested that perhaps it COULD become one, and that's good enough for me.

So.. see ya' in other threads.

 

[LastSpartan]

you tried to inform us, that's what count

 

[gamerguy55]

I thought it was a great that we might get some information about it, but oh well. I'm glad you posted what you did, I am eagerly awaiting what the future of the 405th will turn out to be. I really care about these threads and the 405th in general and I hope that we can really get things going.

 

[rvb4life]

Well this is good, because i would be kind of proud to be in a fully-functional and legit halo fanclub, even though i am under 18 (i got a year), but you do have to take your time on this, so we do have to get a sturdy system down before we can really do outlandish things.


on a less-positive note: Have you checked how many kids populate these forums to the real 18+ adults? its a pretty impressive ratio. But, its mostly 15-17, so it isnt that big of a deal. Just so you know, if you want to make a drastic change.


I better stop ranting without reason. Nyquil really works fast