[Calling all programmers] Open Source Pepakura Alternative, Meant for Costuming

[mistertime]

Hey there, I've been a lurker for a loooooong time here, and have even attempted (and failed pathetically) to build Pepakura armor. I did so badly that I'm emotionally scarred by my failure, and desire something better and something specifically geared for costuming.

To start, this forces us to look at our foundations here at the 405th. We are literally built on workarounds. We make armor by use of a program meant for papercraft. Small papercraft. Pepakura was never meant for this. Then, we print what we get from Pepakura onto cardstock and cut it out so we can glue it together. Then we dump toxic chemicals on it until it's hard enough to pass as armor. Expensive toxic chemicals. Expensive toxic chemicals meant for dent filling. Should we really have to wear a respirator for a costume? Our awesome armor is made from paper and toxic chemicals? What? How is this efficient? How is this smart? We could easily kill ourselves trying to make a costume.

Most of these problems are solved by foam armor. It looks better, it's easier to make, etc. Foam can look absolutely fantastic (see what I did there?). With foam, you can make fantastic armor, but foam templates are exceedingly rare. Pepakura files are mar more common. Sure, you can adapt Pepakura files to work with foam, but it's a painstaking process and you honestly have to buy a license to Pepakura Designer. The problem is that Pepakura files have a whole program for scaling and printing. And, if you have a Craft ROBO, you can have it cut out automatically.

Foam is at a disadvantage to the toxic insanity that is Pepakura. I want to fix this. I don't want to eradicate Pepakura armor entirely, but I'd like to make foam more prevalent by way of a sort of Pepakura for foam. I'm a programmer, so don't tell me I don't know how hard this would be. I am not, however, a 3D programmer, and I would love your input on how this should be gone about.

I propose we eradicate Pepakura itself, and replace it with an open, free solution that anyone can contribute to. (I also want to ditch vBulletin and move to Discourse, but that's another story) The program should not only be capable of Pepakurafying 3D models, but also of opening PDOs and foamifying 3D models by identifying raised/indented areas and producing viable foam patterns. I'm on Reddit far more than I should be, and the sheer amount of bitter arrogant jerks always hate my proposals, so I hope feedback here will be constructive, instead of "ur stuupid hur dur," which is what Reddit would have to offer.

Theoretically, the program should be configurable to the point at which it only uses thicknesses of foam you have specified. It should also be capable of generating HPGL so you can cut it out automatically on a vinyl cutter.

I'm not just proposing a new idea, I'm asking for help. I haven't done much 3D programming, but I'm guessing there are others here who have. I can't make this happen on my own.

I'm done for now, please suggest new features and equally crazy ideas in your posts below.

~mistertime

Also, I'm probably posting this in the wrong place, but I can't place it anywhere else.

 

[colbs]

Pepakura designer is only 30.bucks so yeah it isn't really that big of a deal and converting pep for foam use is no different then setting it up for paper so your program would be pretty much a nock off of Pepakura so really isn't needed

 

[mistertime]

The idea is that it would be *free* and *open source* allowing anyone to get the source and add their own features.

 

[TheOneWithNoName]

While it would be nice to have a program better suited for foam. Although, I would rather have a program that cleans up 3d files for use in programs like pep or your idea.

 

[mistertime]

It'll be open source. That means if someone wants that feature, they'll submit a PR and most likely it'll make it into the app. Load 3D model, clean it up, foam it.

 

[Master Builder]

While it would be nice to have a program better suited for foam. Although, I would rather have a program that cleans up 3d files for use in programs like pep or your idea.

You can't have a program "clean up" a model, there is nothing wrong with them to begin with, they are just made to be as efficient as possible in a game engine, and of course will have other floating, intersecting, non-planar geometry that would not be fit for armor building. Also a lot to of detail will be taken out because it can be represented more efficiently in the normals map.

Also looking over many of the models, I have found that a very sloppy job has been done in the process of creating the low -poly model off the high-poly model, which results in stuff like wavy edge loops, vertices going out of there acceptable space, and the like. This is probably because the artist didn't want to spend much time on the MP armor specifically, after all there are probably close to a hundred different pieces.




A program specifically designed for armor can have it's advantages. But for the most part, Pepakura does it's job very well, the only problem I have with it is the lack of some helpful tools and some simple overlooked options, but for the most part, it does it's job.

Now there are a lot of things that I would like to have in such a program, stuff like morfable target spots of models that can be setup in the program, to better custom fit the model to you proportions. And un-uniform scaling. More user friendly tools for unwrapping and seem picking. More advanced set of tools for actual mesh editing, or some algorithms set up to save all the data for all the seams and position of pieces already created RELATIVE to their actual position in space (goin off the vertices), so it will be possible to update you model/re import it without loosing all the seams you may have already created.

To me it sounds like all you hatred came from your failure. Seriously don't quit, try it again. Obviously none of it was do to pepakura itself. If you can't learn how to use a very simple program, how do you expect to make a better one? Also if you have only worked with 2D concepts for programing, then there is a ton of stuff that you need to learn. What have you coded before? and in what language? What languages do you have a lot of experience in? Also you can't hate the program just because it cost a very small amount of money (Heck I'm using a $4,500 program). And they even offer a free version, it would be nicer if you could scale and repack in it though.

Whats your point about

Then we dump toxic chemicals on it until it's hard enough to pass as armor. Expensive toxic chemicals. Expensive toxic chemicals meant for dent filling.

Do you have a problem with the awesome toxic products that are cheap and easy to come by? Also has superior quality.

I mean really, $20 dollars for a can of medium that will last you a long time using it sparingly like you do on armor. And cures super fast, and is rock hard and made for all that sanding and perfecting, also accepts primer and paint extremely well. What other product would work better? Sure it's toxic, but thats something the user is responsible for, at the minimum all you need is a respirated with some organic filters. Spray paint is toxic too.
Sure it's made for "dent filling" on vehicles, but how is that different from dent filling on any surface? Just look at what this great community has achieved with it! Really, I think you need to gain some more experience working with the stuff before you start judging it.

As for the whole pepakura vs foam thing. They each have their advantages and disadvantages, but over all the best possible detail between the two, will only be achieved with body filler.

 

[mistertime]

Yesssssssssss! Someone with valid arguments!

A program specifically designed for armor can have it's advantages. But for the most part, Pepakura does it's job very well, the only problem I have with it is the lack of some helpful tools and some simple overlooked options, but for the most part, it does it's job.

Oh, you noticed? My question is, "In all these years of costuming, no one has come up with something better?" Pepakura does the job fine, certainly; but, as you say, there are a few features to be desired. The program discussed will have all of these things.

Now there are a lot of things that I would like to have in such a program, stuff like morfable target spots of models that can be setup in the program, to better custom fit the model to you proportions. And un-uniform scaling. More user friendly tools for unwrapping and seem picking. More advanced set of tools for actual mesh editing, or some algorithms set up to save all the data for all the seams and position of pieces already created RELATIVE to their actual position in space (goin off the vertices), so it will be possible to update you model/re import it without loosing all the seams you may have already created.

Okay, there's a feature list. I've already elicited feature suggestions.

To me it sounds like all you hatred came from your failure. Seriously don't quit, try it again. Obviously none of it was do to pepakura itself. If you can't learn how to use a very simple program, how do you expect to make a better one? Also if you have only worked with 2D concepts for programing, then there is a ton of stuff that you need to learn. What have you coded before? and in what language? What languages do you have a lot of experience in? Also you can't hate the program just because it cost a very small amount of money (Heck I'm using a $4,500 program). And they even offer a free version, it would be nicer if you could scale and repack in it though.

As I said, I'm emotionally scarred (seriously, I hate Pepakura). My problem was not with the program itself (except for scaling, that was hell) but that after nearly giving myself carpal tunnel syndrome cutting it out, I'd have to cover it in resin. fiberglass, and Bondo. It's stupidly convoluted. I know Java, C++, HTML, CSS, and JS, and I'm learning many others. I'm most experienced in Java. I'm not a fan of paying for software because I'm incredibly cheap (heck, I'm not a fan of paying for anything). I don't have a copy of Illustrator right now because I haven't been able to justify subscribing to Creative Cloud. Also, judging by the price of your 3D program, I'd say it's Cinema 4D or Maya. Blender is FOSS and can do anything pro 3D suites can (don't dispute with me over this, it's best left alone).

I mean really, $20 dollars for a can of medium that will last you a long time using it sparingly like you do on armor. And cures super fast, and is rock hard and made for all that sanding and perfecting, also accepts primer and paint extremely well. What other product would work better? Sure it's toxic, but thats something the user is responsible for, at the minimum all you need is a respirated with some organic filters. Spray paint is toxic too.
Sure it's made for "dent filling" on vehicles, but how is that different from dent filling on any surface? Just look at what this great community has achieved with it! Really, I think you need to gain some more experience working with the stuff before you start judging it.

As I said above, I'm really freakin' cheap.I was primarily referring to the resin we use to harden armor, not Bondo specifically. I know this wasn't clear in the original post; I'm sorry. I have seen fantastic things the community has done with this stuff, I just don't like working with toxic materials and the alternatives are NOT cheap.

As for the whole pepakura vs foam thing. They each have their advantages and disadvantages, but over all the best possible detail between the two, will only be achieved with body filler.

True, true; I guess I'm not against body filler. The resin and fiberglass are a bigger pain. I honestly would like to be able to 3D print molds and cast things out of hardened Oogoo but I have yet to build a decently large 3D printer.

 

[RobotChicken]

Gasoline is toxic and pollutes the environment, so we shouldn't drive cars. No? Well, I'm not walking 16 miles to work each day. We should make better cars, but until then we must work with what we've got.

Pepakura is not a modeling program. It was never meant to be. If you're trying to use it as such or have expectations of such then you will be disappointed. For what the program is intended to accomplish, it does it fairly *cough* well. With proficiency, scaling and arranging of parts is no ordeal at all. Cutting can also be totally automated. Since developing a methodology using a Silhouette Cameo I haven't picked up the X-acto knife once for assembling my parts, and some of the parts are incredibly tiny.

Making armor is as much about the journey, the crafting, as it is about enjoying the finished product. And yes it is a craft. There is a certain level of skill involved to achieve success. Not everybody's cut out for it (no pun). Some people can paint, others can't - and picking up a paint brush isn't going to change that. Some people can program, others can't (although some do like to try, and try) - and sitting in front of a keyboard won't suddenly make someone a programmer. It takes aptitude. There is no free lunch. (There's the senior menu, but it's still not free.) Like everything else, you get out of it proportional to what you put into it. (Same applies to your proposed application.)

To me, the materials involved are no more toxic than breathing somebody else's foul second-hand smoke (which I totally avoid), breathing the outside air in a large city, or even consuming particular "foods". With the proper precautions (which you'll notice are also in use at auto body repair shops) the materials are totally safe and yield excellent results.

In my opinion, Pepakura does its job well enough - and that is unfolding a 3D model for assembling from flat(ish) materials. But, if you think you can do better, have at it. If the people of this planet never acted on and developed each innovative idea, we'd still be living in caves believing spirits controlled our destinies. Make it, make it well, and then maybe, make history.

 

[Bishorzidi]

I wouldn't call this a stupid idea, but I don't think I would call it a very practical idea. To build an entire program for the purpose of foam template making seems over the top and far too targeted. The beauty of Pepakura is that it's versatile because its core function is simple. Break 3D models down to 2D while still giving some manipulation capability. Because of this, people have been able to use it for tons of different types of projects, including foam making. If you search hard enough, there are tons of great foam breakdowns everywhere. It's great for paper breakdowns if you want to do the cut and glue method that scarred you. This gives a great base to work on top of in a short amount of time. Pepakura is far from perfect, but it does what it needs to for our purposes. If you wanted to build something similar to Pepakura targeted at prop making, sweet! But considering how many Pepakura foam files are out there and how easy templates are to make by hand, I just don't see the practicality of something so specific. In the time it would take to write such a program, you could have made half a dozen different suits. You could be proficient at everything that goes into building costumes rather than having a nice program that only gets you to square one.

To be honest, bondo and fiberglass resin are hardly dangerous chemicals if the proper precautions are taken. Wear a mask and some gloves in a ventilated area and you're fine. I do bodywork every single day, so if you need any tips or help on safety you can just PM me if that would give you any peace of mind.

If these chemicals scare you, and you don't want to spend the money on alternatives, then like you said, foam is your only option. With foam however, it's still not going to be "cheap" by any means, it doesn't necessarily look "better", and at the end of the day, you're going to need to use some type of chemicals to seal the foam's pores, and paint is toxic, so you're back to the chemical issue again. Before you even get that far though, you have to use either a hot knife, which you could burn/cut yourself with, a bandsaw that'll take your fingers off in a heartbeat, or a razor sharp knife that could slice you open like nothing, to cut the foam. No matter how you go about it, this hobby is inherently dangerous, expensive, and time consuming to some degree no matter how you go about it.

The best you can do is take the necessary precautions, think outside the box, but everybody on these costuming forums have been around the bush and spent years finding the methods that work best. New ones are always showing up and it's encouraging to see that you're thinking down the road and trying to improve the hobby, but me personally, I just don't see this going anywhere. I highly suggest you try your hand at taking Pepakura files and stripping them down to use for foam before you start down the road toward making this program. You might just find that you like it If you do make this program though keep us updated. I like being proved wrong :rolleyes

 

[Master Builder]

No I'm using 3ds max, witch now that I think about is only about 3.5 k.

Ok, so I think that making paper meshes is probably the fastest, easiest, cheapest, and most accurate way to get a real life model starte from a 3d model. The only method that would be better is printing, but of course that is a lot more expensive and unavailable to most people, so back to the paper method.

Really, making paper meshes can be a lot of fun, once you get the basics down and create your own work flow, it does take time, but nothing compared to all the other stages you have to go though.

We should all want to do our part for this community. There are very few people with the technical skills to help out in those respectable areas. So in order to really find the best way to help out is, break down the stages of how we are going about creating armor. And then find the weak spot, and tune it up.

First we need models, not just models ripped straight from games, but models specifically made for the purposes.

Then, we need a way to influence/manipulate the models to custom fit them to the individuals body. This is a feature that would really help out imo.

And then of course printing and cutting out. Then building. Which is all perfected.

Next is strengthening the mesh. Fiberglass works superbe for this. It is after all one of the strongest to weight ratio of all the common materials I know of. Don't see how this step can be improved. It is also the most toxic step.

Then you need to "smooth" out the build as most people say, although I like to think of it as building up the mesh because thats the most realistic way to approach it. Bondo works great for this, after all, bondo became popular because it was the least toxic of all the body fillers. This is the most time consuming and skill, needed process.

After all that, you can make a mould and then cast. Nothing you're going to change there.



So looking over all that steps, the only way I can really think of improvements to them is by supplying better models, and something along the lines of a model viewer with a the entire archive of models (for each game) that can be displayed for reference and overall choosing of armor pieces.

Another way is by coming up with a program or system the scale and manipulate the models.

Other than that, I think all the other steps are very well laid out and can only be improved with some creative thought.

 

[Vrogy]

I kind of think that the indexing of pepakura files and easy to understand tutorials would do a lot more than just an open source pepakura- but it would be useful to have a FOSS alternative for all the reasons you mentioned.

There's a lot of techniques for foam I like to call 'budging' - slicing the back to dome parts, heat-forming, curving surfaces etc.. that would be hard to realistically render in software.

But.. foam sure does lasercut really fast, and really cleanly.

 

[mistertime]

RobotChicken: Also, the program should be able to generate HPGL, thereby being compatible with all modern cutters/plotters.
Bishorzidi: Good. I like proving people wrong.
Master Builder: I propose to revolutionize the entire workflow, improving on every step until it's... well, not what it is now. The advanced scaling will probably be implemented. Also, ripping models from the game and distributing them is illegal anyway, so it'd be wonderful if someone (*cough* me *cough*) came up with a dedicated central repository for user-modeled and unfolded PDOs. Maybe a FOSS Pepakura alternative could hook into it...hmm...
Vrogy: Foam laser-cuts without bursting into flames? *Father Grigori laugh*

 

[colbs]

Most likely your going to have to hack pepakura and add and remove features to it and call it your own program but yea that a bad idea

 

[elementfx]

To be 100% honest I have been working on 3D printing some of the gear that I have made. I use a small home 3D printer and a program that I have been working on. The turn out has been about 3/10 make it and I can ware also the time it takes to print is far longer believe it or not. The gear that I did make took close to a week to print. Untill I can get my hands on a printer that can print fast in HD I have put the project on hold. But just to let you know it is in the works. Cheers!

 

[colbs]

To be 100% honest I have been working on 3D printing some of the gear that I have made. I use a small home 3D printer and a program that I have been working on. The turn out has been about 3/10 make it and I can ware also the time it takes to print is far longer believe it or not. The gear that I did make took close to a week to print. Untill I can get my hands on a printer that can print fast in HD I have put the project on hold. But just to let you know it is in the works. Cheers!

What's this gotta do with the topic at hand?

 

[elementfx]

sorry after re reading the post a little closer I read it wrong. I thought we where looking for a less deadly way to create gear. Will take down the post if needed sorry every one.

 

[mistertime]

elementfx: We are. I suggested a program to do foam. I'd honestly love to 3D print armor, but stuff made out of tiny layers of plastic resin can only be so strong. We should probably mold/cast it before wearing it.

 

[colbs]

elementfx: We are. I suggested a program to do foam. I'd honestly love to 3D print armor, but stuff made out of tiny layers of plastic resin can only be so strong. We should probably mold/cast it before wearing it.

You can print the plastic as thick or thin on a 3d printer as you want.. so thickness isn't an issue with 3d printing it's just time consuming as a chest peice would have to be done in sections ( if you don't have an industrial 15000$ printer) and each section would take a few hours to print so yah also each layer of the print is all solidly fused together so it won't just crumble if your wearing it every thing a printer prints is a solid peice

 

[elementfx]

You can print the plastic as thick or thin on a 3d printer as you want.. so thickness isn't an issue with 3d printing it's just time consuming as a chest peice would have to be done in sections ( if you don't have an industrial 15000$ printer) and each section would take a few hours to print so yah also each layer of the print is all solidly fused together so it won't just crumble if your wearing it every thing a printer prints is a solid peice

This is true how ever you some printers have a fuse options that will allow you to make the parts with 2 types of plastic. Some have a composit of 0 strongest and a ton of $$$ and 10 cheep stuff that will crack trying to get it off the panel. however using the two together will make a strong outer shell while still flexible. Looking at the concept of making a 3D foam printer that will cut the foam with a hot knife. Thank you for the idea cheers!

 

[Chernobyl]

I think the idea to which you're referring would be better described as a hot-knife CNC. Something like this -may- exist (indeed, we use a similar process to laser-etch designs into glass blocks) but I'm not sure what the application would have in terms of foam costuming.

Honestly speaking: I'm not sure any of what you're describing has much application. Pepakura works very well for foam template creation - indeed, we have some truly fantastic foam armour builds using Pepakura templates. Why fix what isn't broken?