405th versus 501st

[Adam]

You're right. the way the 405th is right now is definately like the old mjolnir forums. we had to upgrade servers because the other one was out of space, and we just decided to do the 405th thing.

Once we get things going, the mjolnir armor stuff will go back to the "how to make" "noob" forums, and the 405th will become a members/finished armor only site.

I think we need to wait until REALLY good armor is finished, we have more weapons, completed suits, marines etc before we make an attempt at going official.

Unfortunately, pepakura will have to stay at the "noob" forums. Using pep as a base to mold stuff will not though.

 

[Primal Weyland]

Is this to mean that Pepakura-based armor will not be accepted? If so, I must object - Pepakura armor is at a quality that rivals and in some cases actually surpasses moulded armor - if not in strength and durability, then certainly in detail.

I say this not because I myself am creating Pepakura armor, but because I feel that an extremely large userbase would be excluded were this to happen.

 

[DogWizard]

I think that regardless of the "creation type" armor should be judged on the final finished presentation. I can't see any reason to disallow pep armor as a rule, especially given some of the phenomenal pieces that have been created with it. Like anything else there will be great pep, OK pep, and poor pep - the same thing could happen with molded or any other construction type. Just base any decisions on the overall appearance, accuracy, and presentation. As long as the standards are objectively applied, there shouldn't be any issues...

Just my $.02

 

[Adam]

regular, paper, blocky pep armor can't be accepted. Bondo, sand it, glaze, it, mud it, fiberglass it etc - of course that's a different creature all together and looks great! IE, MLC's stuff looks better than mine in some cases. Paper-only armor though... you'd have to put up one heck of a good argument for it.

straight off the printer armor probably won't do. I think the original post came out wrong. Yes, will be judged on final appearance in the end.

 

[Primal Weyland]

That was my idea - that 'finished' Pepakura items would be finished to a high standard with filler, resin, fibreglassing and the like.

 

[tk1055]

Ok would somthing like this pass muster if those rules go into effect?

Armor was made by Damion not I. Personally I think that we don't need such a high standard as the 501st.

 

[Adam]

we don't know for sure, as we haven't made any rules... but I imagine it would need some modification still.

 

[tk1055]

we don't know for sure, as we haven't made any rules... but I imagine it would need some modification still.

What mods would you suggest?

 

[BishopX]

LOL. I think this whole conversation is jumping the point....let's go back to the beginning a little....

Rewind:
The idea was that if some of "us" were interested, we could start something similar to the 501st. The basis would be a high quality costuming group with standards as far as costume requirements. We don't need to get approval from Bungie or Microsoft to do so but arranging events in their names would be out of the question without it. Get approval to make armor without proper licensing....it'll never happen. They've got too much money to care whether you are happy or not. They are in it for the cash. As with Lucasfilm, they may look the other way though.

Costume Forum vs. 405th Members:
These are two completely different things. Even if you are not a member, you should be able to use the costuming forum for the same uses that you do now. If you are a member of the 405th, then you would be able to access the 405th member areas where events, etc. are planned. This is similar to the way that the 501st does it. In all reality, the costume making forum would probably need to be separated from the 405th website anyway.

High Standards:
The 501st has only succeeded and gained public popularity due to the high quality standards. You are not going to get many events or get people excited about calling you in to do an event if you look like paper mache warriors. Movie Quality costumes should be a requirement. Whether the costume of the gentleman above is acceptable, I can't say. It looks good to me but I am no expert and would not profess to be one. A designated person or group of people should be elected to make the determination.

If you don't strive to be the best then you will have to settle for mediocre....and that's not me or Slavefive.

 

[Primal Weyland]

Perhaps it might be better for a panel to be elected in order to judge the armor. One person doesn't seem entirely fair, although I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of the above post.

 

[NZTK]

Its a pretty simple process as far as I see it. one question

Does your armour look like this?

A. Yes, proceed
B. No, try again

 

[Primal Weyland]

As far as I'm concerned NOBODY here is going to get that kind of detail in their armor. And I'm sorry to say it, but we can't expect that quality for years to come.

NOBODY here, apart from a VERY select few, has the expendable budget to make this sort of stuff. Do you REALLY wish to wipe out an entire 70%, maybe even 80% of your base just because they can't make stuff that's micron-accurate?

Pepakura = very yes. As long as it's to a decent standard. It CAN compete with moulded armor if the time and effort is spent on it - Belakor in particular has shown that in his Recon helm. And as a base for a mould, it can be useful.

Moulded armor = absolutely. This is a given, as long as it's of a decent quality again.

Quite simply, we can't afford to just kick out a bunch of people because they can't make such detailed stuff. Because, like with the 501st: GOOD armor came out of BAD armor that was worked on and IMPROVED. EVERYBODY starts somewhere.

 

[Keegan]

100%, not everyone is going to get it right away! It takes time to make these skills and learn from past mistakes. And as Adam said, in post 184 I think? That the blocky stuff isnt the best looking. But you know, when you get the time, take out some bondo and just start bondoing it. Or..... do the mud method, I heard that works good.

 

[Primal Weyland]

I wish to clarify my statement - armor should still be of the highest quality. I make no exceptions when I say that even Pepakura-based armor should be able to pass the test. However, like I said. Micron-accurate armor is a ways off for almost everyone here, unless you're Legendary Armor and have a wallet the size of George Bush's luck, and unfortunately a lot of the processes involved in making such accurate pieces are just too far out of the budget range for a lot of people here.

Nobody can rightfully expect a new 405th recruit of, say, 18-20 years of age, to be able to spend over $1000 on getting a moulded, fitted armor set. It's just not possible - a lot of these people need to pay off college, or find somewhere to live, and if my own personal experience is anything to look at, paying to live is rather expensive. A hobby like this just has no place in the finance department, and once you do the math, saving up for a set of armor to be made for you is just not viable.

So, we have wonderful people like Robogenisis and Flying_Squirl who are willing to put the time into making decently-detailed files that people can print and use to form a base for their armor. And a lot of the armors I've seen based on Pepakura are very promising.

That's not to say that we should instantly accept Pepakura as a solid base for armor-making. In fact, I'm quite the opposite. As a base for moulding, Pepakura is almost perfect, but I'd hardly call it suitable if a person were to make a full suit from it and use that suit time and again. It's not durable enough and the benefits of using it are very limited outside of it being cheap and easy to construct. In short - Pepakura is fine for one convention, maybe two if it's detailed and strengthened suitably, but any time after that the user should seriously consider casting out of plastic.

Hence my statement regarding improvement. All armor starts somewhere, be it from a Pepakura-based set or a straight moulding of the set from clay. But as a group, the 405th simply cannot afford to take a stance and say 'armor must be micron-accurate and if it isn't, look elsewhere'. Not in its infancy - such a stance will undoubtedly drive away members. Wait until we have a dedicated set of users who have moulded, high-quality armors, and wait until the organisation has established itself. Then the 405th will be able to afford itself the luxury of denying lesser-quality armor (and by this, I mean 'anything less than movie-accurate sets).


Put simply: taking up the stance of 'perfect or get out' at this early stage will be incredibly damaging. Believe me, I wish for everyone to be able to have high-quality armor, but the simple fact is that there are decent people out there who want to take part, but are excluded because they don't have the means and/or funding to do so.

 

[Keegan]

Very, VERY well put Primal. But one thing I disagree with, you should still be able to stay in the community if you plan on improving your armor sometime soon. That way you can still be included, but your still basically in a WIP stage, Like me, Im "Finished" but I plan on improving with full bondo soon to be with you guys, I was kinda in a hurry, but thats where I was wrong. Dont hurry to make an event, Finish it all the way. There will be more events, just wait. Armor takes time, I plan on taking another month in the summer for mine to finish it up. If you see anything that could be improved, improve it.

 

[Primal Weyland]

If I implied that armor improvers or non-armored people would be 'kicked out' I apologise. What I meant was that sub-standard (as in, sub-movie quality-standard') armor would not be allowed to conventions and public areas.

 

[Keegan]

Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding. I see your point now. Yes, that makes sense, you mean like events when multiple
405th members would be there to meet together right? But public events, we should all be able to participate. Just if your armor isnt "Top Notch" as you may say, dont advertise the 405th.

 

[Primal Weyland]

Not exactly.

A high-quality armor would, of course, be permitted to show up at a convention. Multiple people would have to have similarly-matched armor in terms of quality, be it Pepakura or a moulded set.

But as the 405th evolves, I anticipate that more and more people would be pressed into moulding armor or not being permitted with Pepakura-based armor multiple times.

 

[Keegan]

I agree totally

 

[CMANavy]

18-21 year olds sure can afford $1,000+ suits. Its all about dedication, not partying every weekend can save you alot of cash. I hand my first $2,000 while still at college. And there are more people here than you think that have a "budget" for expensive costumes. Most suits are not a one time purchase but are a bunch of small things over time adding up to alot.

If anything getting into this hobby should be a motivation for you folks still in school to study harder to get a better job, and thus support you hobby/addiction.