405th versus 501st

[BishopX]

The 405th is nothing close to the 501st .... yet. Eventually, we may be. I am a 501st member also.

Age Requirement:
Seriously, the age requirement for 501st membership is a good thing. I was on Halo 3 playing with guys from this forum and some kid (I won't say names) was just an obnoxious punk. He talked trash to us, his "friends" from the 405th. WTF? I think he was like 12 years old but damn...what an a$$. I'm not saying that if you are younger than the age requirement for membership that you shouldn't be able to participate in the costume building.

Organization:
Organization is a must in any "club". If the 405th were to elect a head, there would be someone who can make the final decisions and set requirements. Currently, I have not seen this.

Movie Quality Costumes:
The truth of the matter is this. The 501st has always had a movie "quality" costume requirement for membership. There are people who actually look at the photos of your costume and determine whether it is movie quality. They do not judge your body shape, just your costume.The 405th should set standards for colors and quality for membership. It doesn't make sense to have a metallic green MC and then a bright green and then a OD green. Pick an official color and require that to be the base color for membership. It should be that way for Red and Blue also. Anything else should be considered a custom Spartan and not MC. The quality requirement is a good thing.

I'd say that if you require the costume to look movie quality, and have a board of members who review the costume then you will eventually set the standard. Unfortunately, some people may not have the skills to make a movie quality costume from cardboard....some will.

Limiting Characters:
If you decide to do an event, don't have 3 green Master Chiefs there. Have one. Have some red and blues, etc. Work on getting more marines, ODSTs and such for support characters. 501st usually won't show with 5 Darth Vaders.


My opinion is to set standards.....

 

[slavefive]

...Bishopx speaks the truth...

...you need to have universal standards...something for people to base their costume and work on...you do not have to spend a ton of money to make one but you want to it to look good, really good to represent the 405th...without that you will have cardboard MC walking around...not bagging but it would be no different if you had Paper Mache Boba Fett trying to represent the 501st...it just does not work...

...age requirements to submit and represent the 405th should seriously be considered...not saying you cannot be a part of the general forum but for recognized IDs and private 405th forum chatter your membership should be reviewed and then granted...sure some might have to wait until they are of age but that is the breaks...

...these types of things help set standards and make a better forum and organization...

...then again perhaps the lack of these things is what sets the appeal for the younger majority...

 

[CMANavy]

I would say that just about wraps up the entire thread.

At the moment there are several very tallented artists and builders from the 501st and other places to form a good core. BishopX and Slave5 are probably some of the best.

 

[Chief]

Very good points, BishopX & slavefive!

But I guess the first step before starting this type of organisation would be getting permission from Bungie to create such a Fan/Costuming Group. I don't think that anyone will have anything against it if Fans (and this means their Clients ) found a non profit organisation to stay in contact and to do something together on events or so. If you have the permission you have a secure foundation to start all the other intensive work.

It would be very bad if you first put lots of work in it and then getting problems due to licenses or so and you have to throw that work away again.


Just my thoughts.


Sincerely,
Chris

 

[raven2751]

well although the points made are good points i thought this site was for fans to talk about making their own stuff to the best of their ability, alot of people me included are new at this and are not too keen on people that slater their work cause it is not 100% acurate, were not here to make money or fame were just here to talk about something we like doing so i think the site is fine the way it is and the 501st is completely different due the fact that if your no good then we don't want you attitude which is kind of elitest

 

[Sinjinsmiley]

Some good points there Bishop and slave although there are a few things I would like to highlight.

First I think a distinction has to be made between the 405th Forum and the UNSC 405th Infantry Division as a costuming organisation. As raven has highlighted many members are here simply to chat rather than take part in a organised Halo costuming group. This is not wrong but it should be highlighted that just joining the forum does not mean that you join the 405th as an organisation. If you read the sticky at the top of this forum it seems that this is how Adam wants it to be (after all you don't have to pay a $50 start up fee to join as far as I know).

The quality of costumes sorts of leads on from that. If you seperate the 2 joining one means you have to go through another process to join the actual 405th and once again as the sticky says it is intended that high quality armour will be a requirement. Personally as I have said before I think the quality of all armour on this site is going up - especially in the Pepakura department. As soon as we have a full set of HD pep made I think the amount of "movie quality" full sets of armour will drastically go up in my view.

The age requirement fits in with the above.

In terms of limiting the number of characters I don't think this is so important. Whilst yes there should be a variety of costumes - Spartan's, ODSTs, Marines etc - I think it would be wrong to set a limit on how many of each we have. As Master Chief and the Mjolnir armour are the best known it is likely to be the most widely recreated. Now whilst 3 Master Chiefs is certainly wrong 3 green Spartans is not. As long as it is Spartans we are acting as numbers should not be limited.

Organisation is definitely needed as you say although I agree with Chief that recognition from Bungie/Microsoft is important before we go stamping around breaking numerous licensing laws etc.

Just my views

Sinjinsmiley

 

[slavefive]

...so is there another Halo Costuming Group that is more geared towards setting standards???...I was under the impression that this was 'the' unofficial Halo costuming site...I have to admit that I, along with Bishopx, are fairly new to Halo Costuming...

...please educate us so that we can better understand the differences that you mentioned between the 405th and UNSC 405th Infantry...

...since it was brought up we were merely posting our experiences regarding the 501st vs what we have seen here...and what we think the 405th needs in order to take things to the next level...

Thank you
Lewis

 

[Sinjinsmiley]

WARNING - Speculation

The 405th forums, i believe, are a meeting place for Halo costumers and a discussion of the creation of armour and other props. Essentially I see this as the old Mjolnirarmour.com just transferred to a new site.

On the other hand the 405th as a costuming organisation is relatively new. It is this organisation which we should be comparing to the 501st. As I see it joining the forum does not necessarily mean you join this organisation. Due to the lack of updates from admins, however, I do not know the status of the organisation at the moment. However, link has said that "we have to get the rules set before we do the memeberships" so it may be that no-one is yet a member.

As I say I am not speaking from an official perspective whatsoever and do not know what the official view is although I would be interested to find out.

 

[Sigma LS]

Personally, I think that along with all the standards and everything else that has been discussed here that it is also important for us to try getting together as groups unofficially for public events like cons so we can try to work out a kind of group dynamic and see what works before taking the next step (I know I don't have that kind of experience that you 501st folks do). I hope we get a chance to do this with some of the Texas members this year. Maybe for A-kon or Oni-con?

Bishop- Yeah, this is THE Halo costume site. I'm also really glad that we've had the fortune of attracting some experienced armorers from other areas of interest (Mostly 501st and the Colonial Marines).

Truthfully I don't know if Halo will always be a big deal though I will like it (Depends on the future of the series as well as the success of the movie). I think for an organization on the scale of the 501st we would have to branch out and be "THE video game armor site" though that causes all sorts of other IP difficulties.

 

[Primal Weyland]

A point for armor types is that of course, a convention cannot have more than one 'Master Chief'. However, all standard Mk V/Mk VI MJOLNIR armor sets are green, so I'd assume only the highest-ranking person in standard Mk V/Mk VI armor would be designated 'Master Chief' while the others would be designated as standard SPARTANs.

This being said - I wish to craft a white Recon armor. While this most certainly isn't 'movie-quality', it is indeed a unique and distinguishing set, as well as conforming to the Halo universe in being a recognised MJOLNIR variant and, as far as I can tell, an properly-scaled variant. While may be true that all persons attending a convention may be SPARTANs, it should be recognised that perhaps some people/members may not be turning up in the standard olive-green Mk VI MJOLNIR armor, and so you have variety.


Also, I would like to move to agree upon at least making 'membership' status only open to those who have a complete and satisfactory set of armor, perhaps at a small joining fee. In other words, some controlling body would have to be presented with proof of the armor quality before a person would be allowed to be elevated to 'membership' position, perhaps with such perks as access to Members-Only forums and discussions, as well as perhaps 405th-based merchanise (t-shirts, badges, the like). Those who wish to craft armor would be free to do so, and still remain a part of the community, but only the proven would be free to move on into the 'ranks', so to speak.

While this may appear initially exclusive of those without the skill or ability to craft an armor, perhaps this would be the incentive to make these people work on their armor to make it acceptable, should they wish to join the 'member' forum.

 

[DogWizard]

I'll preface this by saying - I'm old, old and very corporate. While I'm not a member of the 501st, I do know how corporations approach licensing and marketing issues. From what I understand about the way the 501st started and how they achieved acceptance (and even endorsement) by Lucasfilm, there was a great deal of organization, standards, and professionalism involved before official sanction was actively pursued or offered. I may be incorrect and if so then I'm sure that the local 501st members will correct me.

While I understand the desire to have Bungie/Microsoft approval in place before we get too serious, the reality is that no corporation will risk the potential liability or negative publicity issues that could easily arise from being associated with a group that is anything less than professional. If the 405th is serious about taking the next step and being officially recognized then it is imperative that the effort be made on this side to raise the standards to the point that Bungie/Microsoft can feel "safe" about the association.

I think that the level of enthusiasm shown by many of the members here is nothing short of amazing - however the points illustrated above hold true:

There will have to be an age limit enforced - I have nothing against the younger enthusiasts but all it would take is for Bungie to spend five minutes wandering through some of the forum posts and they will turn around and walk away. I'm not passing judgement - I know some young people that are tremendously mature and I know some "adults" that I wouldn't let wash my car. Unfortunately, many young people may also be unable to make the commitment (especially financial) required to properly present "professional" armor/costuming. It's not cheap and cardboard just isn't going to cut it (usually)...

"Movie Grade" armor/costuming will have to be a requirement for public activities. I just don't see any way around it. I have seen some amazing things from some very talented people but I have also seen some very well meaning people create some things that just aren't quite up to snuff. Standards will have to be created and objectively applied if this is ever going to take off. This may be where the divide between the 405th Forum and the 405th Infantry comes into play...

It will be up to us to prove to Bungie/Microsoft the we are organized, professional, and here to stay before we have any real chance at a legitimate endorsement. The more we do, the better our chances...

I'm game - how about you?

 

[Dark One]

Man, this thread is still going??? Again to those that bash the 501st, you will accomplish nothing in making the 405th succeed. There are several 501st names here I recognize from other forums and I have seen their armor. This hobby IS NOT FOR THOSE THAT DO NOT HAVE SOME FORM OF DISPOSABLE INCOME!!!!!! It is expensive. I have spent THOUSANDS of dollars on my costumes. I have Boba Fett, Clone trooper, Darth Maul, most of a costume for a Spartan from 300 and a BR MC helmet. If I am going to put it on and parade around in it, it will be the BEST I can make it. The PEP files are cool but honestly, do you think you can make it look like what is in the video game???? I have never seen a PEP TK, Vader, CLone, and probably never will. They will never be approved for the 501st. It's not elitist. It's being the most realistic you can be. It's cool to get the reaction of "Hey, were you in the movie?" I have seen some amazing PEP work here and it looks good but what happens when you wear it? Even if you re-enforce it and all that it will not last long. You wear your costumes and they get beat up. You constantly have to fix and upgrade parts. There is good reason why styrene, ABS, or Fiberglass backed armor is made. It stands the test of time and it lasts. AND it looks like armor. It's already been mentioned but age limits will play a huge role in how all this pans out. As well as armor standards. I could be wrong and would love for someone to prove me wrong but a set of PEP armor next to some of the Formed, vacced, pulled, etc. HALO MC armor on here won't make it.

 

[Primal Weyland]

Man, this thread is still going??? Again to those that bash the 501st, you will accomplish nothing in making the 405th succeed. There are several 501st names here I recognize from other forums and I have seen their armor. This hobby IS NOT FOR THOSE THAT DO NOT HAVE SOME FORM OF DISPOSABLE INCOME!!!!!! It is expensive. I have spent THOUSANDS of dollars on my costumes. I have Boba Fett, Clone trooper, Darth Maul, most of a costume for a Spartan from 300 and a BR MC helmet. If I am going to put it on and parade around in it, it will be the BEST I can make it. The PEP files are cool but honestly, do you think you can make it look like what is in the video game???? I have never seen a PEP TK, Vader, CLone, and probably never will. They will never be approved for the 501st. It's not elitist. It's being the most realistic you can be. It's cool to get the reaction of "Hey, were you in the movie?" I have seen some amazing PEP work here and it looks good but what happens when you wear it? Even if you re-enforce it and all that it will not last long. You wear your costumes and they get beat up. You constantly have to fix and upgrade parts. There is good reason why styrene, ABS, or Fiberglass backed armor is made. It stands the test of time and it lasts. AND it looks like armor. It's already been mentioned but age limits will play a huge role in how all this pans out. As well as armor standards. I could be wrong and would love for someone to prove me wrong but a set of PEP armor next to some of the Formed, vacced, pulled, etc. HALO MC armor on here won't make it.

That is a valid point - pepakura unfortunately will not be a substitute for a vacuum-formed or moulded armor set.

However, what everyone here must realise is that this is a forum and a fandom in its infancy - it isn't nearly as established as the 501st is, and I'm sure that in the beginning the 501st ran just like we did - with amateur sets, most likely nowhere near 'movie quality'.

Indeed, pepakura sets may not last as long as a formed set would, and if there is a cheaper way to get a formed set, certainly I would work on developing such a system for the Unicomplex. However, until such a time as better techniques become viable for more members, unfortunately pepakura will, for the 405th, just have to do. Some pepakura sets can be amazing - take a look at Belakor's Recon helm, or the work from Robogenisis, Slyfo and Flying_Squirl.


Wanting an accurate set of armor is not elitist, and I fully support a movement that means the armor quality is the best it can be within the 405th. However, for a group in its infancy, perhaps a few compromises are going to have to be made.

 

[Dark One]

I totally understand why people want to do the PEP stuff and again I think it is great. Yes the 405th is in an infancy stage and it does take time. The only thing I want some to understand is that if the 405th wants to get to the level of the 501st which I think it can and will, and I want to help the best I can, is that eventually the PEP stuff will only be used to develop ideas. It will then have to become or made into bucks to pull armor from. Like what one member is doing right now. I don't want to give the impression that I think the PEP is a bad thing. It's just if and when standards do come into effect, I don't see it working as an "approved" set of armor. I hope I am making some sense. Here is to making ALL of us better and not trying to "compete" or put down the 501st or any other costuming site.

 

[Garland]

I think pep would work just fine, so long as the HD files are used, the base paper creation is as perfect as possible (everything lines up, no gaps or warping, etc.), and substantial effort is put into the bondo work, sanding, and painting.

18 sounds like a reasonable age limit, but what about this: make two levels. Have a lower tier, that excepts reasonably good cardboard, basic pep, a few inaccuracies, and have the age limit 16. This could be the recruits. They do events and premiers in their home regions and spread the word about the 405th. The top tier has the 18 year age limit, perfect armour (molded, vac-formed, super-amazing pep, etc.), and travels around, doing the big shows like Comic Con. This would be the enlisted ranks, and would be the public face of the 405th, doing the charity work, marching, shaking hands with Bungie, etc. There would still be the forums of course, for the beginners or those just looking for a chat on Halo/armour related topics. Think about, you don't just get a driver's license, you get a learner's permit first. The recruits tier could be for beginners and younger members, a chance to prove themselves before joining the "big boys".

I have a great deal of respect for the 501st. Look how they started and what they are now. They started pretty much the same way we are now: a few savvy geeks making armour for their favourite sci-fi franchise, and now look at them. If I remember correctly, didn't Lucas designate Vader's personal legion the 501st in ROTS out of respect for the long and loyal support from the real 501st? Imagine if we became official, and someday we became a part of the Halo-verse by being put in a game/book/movie?

 

[kerotan 36]

I would like to apologise for my comment against the 501st I respect you guys for being great armor makers. I know it has been said before but we shouldn't be flaming each other we need to learn to respect each other as armor makers alike.

 

[Keegan]

I think pep would work just fine, so long as the HD files are used, the base paper creation is as perfect as possible (everything lines up, no gaps or warping, etc.), and substantial effort is put into the bondo work, sanding, and painting.

15 sounds like a reasonable age limit, but what about this: make two levels. Have a lower tier, that excepts reasonably good cardboard, basic pep, a few inaccuracies, and have the age limit 10. This could be the recruits. They do events and premiers in their home regions and spread the word about the 405th. The top tier has the 15 year age limit, perfect armour (molded, vac-formed, super-amazing pep, etc.), and travels around, doing the big shows like Comic Con. This would be the enlisted ranks, and would be the public face of the 405th, doing the charity work, marching, shaking hands with Bungie, etc. There would still be the forums of course, for the beginners or those just looking for a chat on Halo/armour related topics. Think about, you don't just get a driver's license, you get a learner's permit first. The recruits tier could be for beginners and younger members, a chance to prove themselves before joining the "big boys".

I have a great deal of respect for the 501st. Look how they started and what they are now. They started pretty much the same way we are now: a few savvy geeks making armour for their favourite sci-fi franchise, and now look at them. If I remember correctly, didn't Lucas designate Vader's personal legion the 501st in ROTS out of respect for the long and loyal support from the real 501st? Imagine if we became official, and someday we became a part of the Halo-verse by being put in a game/book/movie?

There I like that better

 

[Primal Weyland]

You're forgetting that Halo is a game rated M for Mature - meaning nobody younger than 16 should be even playing it. What sort of example would the 405th be setting if we allowed people below the age category for the games to become directly involved in this sort of thing as a full member?

As has been said before, the age limit is there for a reason. Nobody minds minors being here, or even crafting armor - we couldn't stop them even if we tried. But the 501st has proven that an age requirement works well for the integrity of the site and for the group as a whole.

I agree with the age boundaries set and outlined by Garland - a tiered solution may work the best for all interested groups.

Edit: after checking your profile, Keegan, I point out that you have only changed the age boundaries so that they will suit you personally. I have browsed your posts and find that you have indeed not crafted any armor yet. Therefore, you still need to prove yourself as a top-tier member even if you made the age qualification. Changing the boundary to suit your liking would prove nothing.

While I agree that younger members should be allowed to participate, I still bring the point of a higher age boundary allowing more mature members and armorsmiths to participate properly, while those below the age range would need to prove themselves.

Prove to me, please, that all 15-year-olds on this site are viable for propotion straight to the top tier, and I will agree with your proposal.

 

[Janissary782]

Yeah. There should probably be an age 16 limit. Just get some organization and you'll get up there with the 501st.

 

[Deathproof72]

Wow they own us, they have hundreds of members who join together to practice and do parades and shows. What do we do? Make armor (they do it)
Have a website (they do)
Talk to each other (they do)
Have awesome parades and go to shows and cons in a huge group (we dont but they do)

You get my point, haha. I am still loyal to the 405th though.

EDIT: THEY HAVE FREAKIN TRADING CARDS OF EACH MEMBER HAHAHA!Click Here to See

Well said - Im from the Hunters lair and just getting started on the Halo stuff but the only time the preds get together is during things like D.C. and other conventions.
It is amazing to see how huge the 501st has grown....